Comments on: NNTP, Core Data, and Wombats http://www.losingfight.com/blog/2006/09/21/nntp-core-data-and-wombats/ i secretly code in visual basic Wed, 20 Aug 2008 14:19:55 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5 By: Allan http://www.losingfight.com/blog/2006/09/21/nntp-core-data-and-wombats/#comment-882 Allan Fri, 10 Nov 2006 17:35:15 +0000 http://www.losingfight.com/blog/2006/09/21/nntp-core-data-and-wombats/#comment-882 Doesn't 3977 obsolete 977? Perhaps the newsreaders implement that standard? Doesn’t 3977 obsolete 977? Perhaps the newsreaders implement that standard?

]]> By: florian Zschocke http://www.losingfight.com/blog/2006/09/21/nntp-core-data-and-wombats/#comment-453 florian Zschocke Mon, 09 Oct 2006 13:31:03 +0000 http://www.losingfight.com/blog/2006/09/21/nntp-core-data-and-wombats/#comment-453 Ok, Ok but I' m still convinced that you are hunting something very hypothetic. If I should have all these fallbacks in Xnntp, it would be the double work - for what? Also, it would be nearly impossible to find a real-world server to test against. But in the end, if you want these fallbacks in Xnntp I will put them in - but not for free. For free you get a CoreData based, Spotlight indexed, multi-server and easy to use newsreader that work with the most news-server out there. Florian Ok, Ok but I’ m still convinced that you are hunting something very hypothetic.
If I should have all these fallbacks in Xnntp, it would be the double work - for what? Also, it would be nearly impossible to find a real-world server to test against. But in the end, if you want these fallbacks in Xnntp I will put them in - but not for free. For free you get a CoreData based, Spotlight indexed, multi-server and easy to use newsreader that work with the most news-server out there.

Florian

]]> By: Andy http://www.losingfight.com/blog/2006/09/21/nntp-core-data-and-wombats/#comment-440 Andy Sat, 07 Oct 2006 22:26:37 +0000 http://www.losingfight.com/blog/2006/09/21/nntp-core-data-and-wombats/#comment-440 Hi Florian, I realize that not every newsreader promises to work with every newsserver, but interopability is implied. That's the point of standards and RFC's: to define a protocol that newsreaders and newsservers can agree on and interoperate with. If both client and server implement RFC 977, they should just work (I realize that's not always true, but, in theory, that's how it should work). I disagree that there's not a fallback for XOVER and XHDR. There is a fallback for XOVER or XHDR, and it's called HEAD. I freely admit that it's nowhere near as efficient as XOVER or XHDR, but it can be used to accomplish the same task. As far as using HELP to get a dynamic command set, I think that would fail even if you got back a non-500 response. Different servers use a different format to display the HELP. That's because HELP is for users, not machines (i.e. its not usually computer parsable). I actually think that it is fairly easy to implement fallbacks. The client can send an XOVER, if it gets a 500 back, then it tries XHDR, if it still gets a 500 back, then it uses HEAD. I think the odds of finding a server that doesn't implement one of these commands is pretty close to nil. Especially considering that HEAD is in RFC 977. Saying that INN can be configured to talk to no one is a rather moot point. You can do that with just about any piece of software. My point was that a server implementing RFC 977 should work with existing NNTP clients. Taking your webbrowser analogy, you can still view old web pages using the newer webbrowsers. They don't stop working, they just don't work as well. And that's my point: I didn't expect the newsclients to work well with a newsserver that only implemented RFC 977, but I did expect them to still work. -andy Hi Florian,

I realize that not every newsreader promises to work with every newsserver, but interopability is implied. That’s the point of standards and RFC’s: to define a protocol that newsreaders and newsservers can agree on and interoperate with. If both client and server implement RFC 977, they should just work (I realize that’s not always true, but, in theory, that’s how it should work).

I disagree that there’s not a fallback for XOVER and XHDR. There is a fallback for XOVER or XHDR, and it’s called HEAD. I freely admit that it’s nowhere near as efficient as XOVER or XHDR, but it can be used to accomplish the same task.

As far as using HELP to get a dynamic command set, I think that would fail even if you got back a non-500 response. Different servers use a different format to display the HELP. That’s because HELP is for users, not machines (i.e. its not usually computer parsable).

I actually think that it is fairly easy to implement fallbacks. The client can send an XOVER, if it gets a 500 back, then it tries XHDR, if it still gets a 500 back, then it uses HEAD. I think the odds of finding a server that doesn’t implement one of these commands is pretty close to nil. Especially considering that HEAD is in RFC 977.

Saying that INN can be configured to talk to no one is a rather moot point. You can do that with just about any piece of software. My point was that a server implementing RFC 977 should work with existing NNTP clients. Taking your webbrowser analogy, you can still view old web pages using the newer webbrowsers. They don’t stop working, they just don’t work as well.

And that’s my point: I didn’t expect the newsclients to work well with a newsserver that only implemented RFC 977, but I did expect them to still work.

-andy

]]> By: Florian Zschocke http://www.losingfight.com/blog/2006/09/21/nntp-core-data-and-wombats/#comment-430 Florian Zschocke Sat, 07 Oct 2006 07:49:34 +0000 http://www.losingfight.com/blog/2006/09/21/nntp-core-data-and-wombats/#comment-430 What you discovered and what is "shocking" you is not worth to leave a word about it. Non of the producer of these readers promises you that his client will work with every server. There is nothing what you could call fallback for XOVER or XHDR. I thought a long time about if it is possible to get a newsreader with a dynamic command set. It should get the possible commands with HELP, but you will find a lot servers where you get a 500 with HELP. So what will you do ? You try every command and if it is not working try the next possible pattern to get the information into your application? I think the possibility that you get a non working client on this way is much higher than looking to the responses of the existing servers. Xnntp is now working with all servers I have seen so far. That dose not mean that it will work with all. It is also true, that you can configure INN in a way that it will to talk to nobody. RFC 977 is now 20 years old and the extensions like 2980 are the de-facto standard. There are only a few possible ways to get a good content overview on a nntp server, implementing these will give you a good client. What you do, is looking for a backward compatibility which is necessary. Try to open a web-page optimized for NS3 or NS4 with one of your up-to-date browser and be surprised or shocked. Florian What you discovered and what is “shocking” you is not worth to leave a word about it. Non of the producer of these readers promises you that his client will work with every server. There is nothing what you could call fallback for XOVER or XHDR. I thought a long time about if it is possible to get a newsreader with a dynamic command set. It should get the possible commands with HELP, but you will find a lot servers where you get a 500 with HELP. So what will you do ? You try every command and if it is not working try the next possible pattern to get the information into your application? I think the possibility that you get a non working client on this way is much higher than looking to the responses of the existing servers. Xnntp is now working with all servers I have seen so far. That dose not mean that it will work with all. It is also true, that you can configure INN in a way that it will to talk to nobody. RFC 977 is now 20 years old and the extensions like 2980 are the de-facto standard. There are only a few possible ways to get a good content overview on a nntp server, implementing these will give you a good client. What you do, is looking for a backward compatibility which is necessary. Try to open a web-page optimized for NS3 or NS4 with one of your up-to-date browser and be surprised or shocked.

Florian

]]>